Tesla provides details on recent Autopilot crash amid NHTSA investigation

That's such a tired argument. The pilot in a plane can (and does) set autopilot and go wander to the bathroom and have a coffee. He doesn't have to "remain vigilant" with his hands on the yolk. Of course, they don't have objects to run into up there. The point is the word and its connotations, not what it does or doesn't do in some unrelated industry. In [most of] North America, our courts practices the "reasonable persons" test, and I think the vast majority of reasonable persons BEFORE THESE ACCIDENTS HAPPENED would make the presumption that "AutoPilot" - given what it does do and what Musk brags about (go watch the dual motor announcement video) it being able to do - that the car drives SAFELY by itself. And the reality is... it does (until it doesn't) because that's what it is designed to do (until it fails). You're using backwards logic to explain in reverse what reality is, but we're discussing expectations not results.

Have YOU? I own one and drive one every single day with AutoPilot. Do you? Because yes, keeping your hands on the wheel will disengage it. I didn't say lightly touching it does. But it doesn't take much. It is uncomfortable (I've tried) to drive around pretending to have your hands on the wheel as you lightly grip it but not hard enough to turn it off. Your arms get physically tired because normally the wheel is providing support, but not if you are doing this weird pretend-driving thing that Tesla implies is necessary and safe.

No clarification (certainly by you) is necessary. You can't seem to understand that what "Tesla says" is a moving target depending on what went wrong. Prior to the first major incident, there was no "it is only a driver assist feature". At that time, it was "beta and you need to be careful". Same thing? Hardly! You also seem to misunderstand what "autonomous" is or isn't.

Mostly though, your attitude is... not worth anymore time.

Pretty lengthy post since I'm not worth anymore time lol. Have a nice day.

I don't understand why the system doesn't get obnoxious when you take both hands off the steering wheel. AFAIK systems other carmakers don't let you do that to the point of pulling you off the road well before "1 minute 22 seconds". If this is a PR problem for Tesla, then I feel like Tesla partly brought it on themselves.

Hey guess what you abuse anything in this world and it will end up hurting you!! All these stupid rich Tesla drivers abusing autopilot are setting a bad example for Tesla trying to develop newer and safer technologies!! So I believe they all deserve what they get!! I may or may not get autopilot on my Model 3 Mainly due to $$$$ but I'll tell you 1 thing I wont all a sudden use my cellphone more, I wont sleep while its on, I wont watch a harry potter movie, I wont let it drift out of the lane into a guardrail before I react EITHER!!

Yeah... you say you won't :)

Unlike you, I have sympathy for the people involved in these accidents. Unlike you, I can have some perspective. Partially because, unlike you, I have experience with the system... but mostly because, unlike you, I can think beyond absolutes.

I want to address something right off the bat. A matter of timing. You mention "I won't watch a harry potter movie", clearly referencing Mr. Brown that lost his life in Florida a couple years ago. Your horribly insensitive attitude fails to take into account that yes - YOU WOULD HAVE - done so. Up until that moment, it appeared that AutoPilot was what its name suggests and that you really could just let it drive. Because you could... at least up until you couldn't. Up until that moment, there wasn't a "couldn't" (at least that was widely reported). I was disgusted at Tesla's response to that incident, essentially blaming the victim for what was - in all but the most technical legalities - a hardware failure. And at that time... in that situation... it really was. Tesla said, "oh, well, it did its job as it was designed to do and he wasn't paying attention" and that was BS. It was marketed as being able to see the damned truck and stop well in time to never be a problem. I'm sure if you polled 100 people the day before that accident and asked them what would happen if a truck pulled out in front of the car hundreds of meters ahead on a straight road with clear visibility... that all 100 of them would tell you the Tesla would stop and there'd be no problem. But a day after? 99 of them tell you the guy was an idiot. He wasn't a "stupid rich" person, hev was a pioneer.

Now after it has happened half a dozen times, sure you lose sympathy for people. But before that car slammed into that firetruck, 100% of Tesla supporters would tell you the car would have stopped. After it happens? She's an idiot.

Tesla and Musk are to blame for marketing (or hinting) that the safety features do more than they really do.

BUT EVEN KNOWING ALL THAT... I'm still using AP every day, and my hands are not on the wheel (feels kind of stupid having them on the wheel because then it shuts off the AP!) and my attention to what's directly in front of me automatically lessens.

Before this car crashed into that firetruck, I would tell people this story:

[quote]If I had to choose between AutoPilot and myself, I'd choose myself, of course, every time. But... I feel like I'm a safer driver with AutoPilot because the moment I engage it, my tunnel vision focus on the road lessens and I take in more of what's going on around me. I feel like my car has the front covered, so I can look for other threats. I feel like my ability to anticipate issues is heightened because my car is taking care of what's going on right now.[/quote]

But now? Now I *know* I can't trust it to see what's in front of me and appropriately react.

But I *still* use it :) And I'll admit, I still misuse it - technically speaking - because my hands aren't on the wheel and my attention is elsewhere. Because... whether or not Tesla and most Tesla fans will admit it... that's what it is there for.

I don't understand why the system doesn't get obnoxious when you take both hands off the steering wheel. AFAIK systems other carmakers don't let you do that to the point of pulling you off the road well before "1 minute 22 seconds". If this is a PR problem for Tesla, then I feel like Tesla partly brought it on themselves.

The system does get obnoxious when you take your hands off the wheel? It's similar to driving without your seat belt. What do you want it to do if you take your hands off the wheel? Disengage completely, pull off the road, both things that can cause more harm.

Your are incorrect on your second point, Chevy's Super Cruise for one, doesn't require you to have your hands on the wheel at all. It requires you to look straight a head and if you don't becomes obnoxious.

[QUOTE="bcsteeve, post: 15837, member: 7780"]Yeah... you say you won't :)

Unlike you, I have sympathy for the people involved in these accidents. Unlike you, I can have some perspective. Partially because, unlike you, I have experience with the system... but mostly because, unlike you, I can think beyond absolutes.

I want to address something right off the bat. A matter of timing. You mention "I won't watch a harry potter movie", clearly referencing Mr. Brown that lost his life in Florida a couple years ago. Your horribly insensitive attitude fails to take into account that yes - YOU WOULD HAVE - done so. Up until that moment, it appeared that AutoPilot was what its name suggests and that you really could just let it drive. Because you could... at least up until you couldn't. Up until that moment, there wasn't a "couldn't" (at least that was widely reported). I was disgusted at Tesla's response to that incident, essentially blaming the victim for what was - in all but the most technical legalities - a hardware failure. And at that time... in that situation... it really was. Tesla said, "oh, well, it did its job as it was designed to do and he wasn't paying attention" and that was BS. It was marketed as being able to see the damned truck and stop well in time to never be a problem. I'm sure if you polled 100 people the day before that accident and asked them what would happen if a truck pulled out in front of the car hundreds of meters ahead on a straight road with clear visibility... that all 100 of them would tell you the Tesla would stop and there'd be no problem. But a day after? 99 of them tell you the guy was an idiot. He wasn't a "stupid rich" person, hev was a pioneer.

Now after it has happened half a dozen times, sure you lose sympathy for people. But before that car slammed into that firetruck, 100% of Tesla supporters would tell you the car would have stopped. After it happens? She's an idiot.

Tesla and Musk are to blame for marketing (or hinting) that the safety features do more than they really do.

BUT EVEN KNOWING ALL THAT... I'm still using AP every day, and my hands are not on the wheel (feels kind of stupid having them on the wheel because then it shuts off the AP!) and my attention to what's directly in front of me automatically lessens.

Before this car crashed into that firetruck, I would tell people this story:



But now? Now I *know* I can't trust it to see what's in front of me and appropriately react.

But I *still* use it :) And I'll admit, I still misuse it - technically speaking - because my hands aren't on the wheel and my attention is elsewhere. Because... whether or not Tesla and most Tesla fans will admit it... that's what it is there for.[/QUOTE]

How does AutoPilot suggest you can really just let it drive? The instructions say it does not, and the other use of that word "AutoPilot" is in aviation where it definitely does not mean "the plane just takes off and flys itself to the destination"

Having your hands on the wheel does not turn off autopilot... Are you sure you've driven a telsa? If your hands are on the wheel and you try to take over steering it will turn off autopilot..

So just to clarify - Tesla says it's a driver assist feature, you should remain vigilante and keep your hands on the wheel. You choose not to remain vigilante with your hands off the wheel because despite what the creators say, you think it's autonomous... hmmm

How does AutoPilot suggest you can really just let it drive? The instructions say it does not, and the other use of that word "AutoPilot" is in aviation where it definitely does not mean "the plane just takes off and flys itself to the destination"[/quote]That's such a tired argument. The pilot in a plane can (and does) set autopilot and go wander to the bathroom and have a coffee. He doesn't have to "remain vigilant" with his hands on the yolk. Of course, they don't have objects to run into up there. The point is the word and its connotations, not what it does or doesn't do in some unrelated industry. In [most of] North America, our courts practices the "reasonable persons" test, and I think the vast majority of reasonable persons BEFORE THESE ACCIDENTS HAPPENED would make the presumption that "AutoPilot" - given what it does do and what Musk brags about (go watch the dual motor announcement video) it being able to do - that the car drives SAFELY by itself. And the reality is... it does (until it doesn't) because that's what it is designed to do (until it fails). You're using backwards logic to explain in reverse what reality is, but we're discussing expectations not results.

[QUOTE="JordanWilliamson, post: 15840, member: 19325"]Having your hands on the wheel does not turn off autopilot... Are you sure you've driven a telsa?[/quote]Have YOU? I own one and drive one every single day with AutoPilot. Do you? Because yes, keeping your hands on the wheel will disengage it. I didn't say lightly touching it does. But it doesn't take much. It is uncomfortable (I've tried) to drive around pretending to have your hands on the wheel as you lightly grip it but not hard enough to turn it off. Your arms get physically tired because normally the wheel is providing support, but not if you are doing this weird pretend-driving thing that Tesla implies is necessary and safe.

[QUOTE="JordanWilliamson, post: 15840, member: 19325"]So just to clarify - Tesla says it's a driver assist feature, you should remain vigilante and keep your hands on the wheel. You choose not to remain vigilante with your hands off the wheel because despite what the creators say, you think it's autonomous... hmmm

No clarification (certainly by you) is necessary. You can't seem to understand that what "Tesla says" is a moving target depending on what went wrong. Prior to the first major incident, there was no "it is only a driver assist feature". At that time, it was "beta and you need to be careful". Same thing? Hardly! You also seem to misunderstand what "autonomous" is or isn't.

Mostly though, your attitude is... not worth anymore time.

doesnt tesla have that accident avoidance braking system? and the driver of this vehicle shouldnt have been looking at her phone, just like the accident in arizona that killed the pedestrian, that driver was looking down at her phone also.